Ever wonder if non-alcoholic drinks are a safe choice or if they’re just playing with fire? I’m digging into the real questions you need to ask yourself before pouring one. We’ll talk about the archetypes they are most connected with, what hidden pitfalls to watch out for, and how to approach non-alcoholic drinks with curiosity instead of judgment. This is episode 439, and if you’ve ever thought, “Is this mocktail helping me or pulling me back towards old habits?” this conversation will give you the clarity you need.

Whether you want to drink less or stop drinking, this podcast will help you change the habit from the inside out. We’re challenging conventional wisdom about why people drink and why it can be hard to resist temptation. No labels, no judgment, just practical tools to take control of your desire and stop worrying about your drinking. Now, here’s your host, Rachel Hart.

Rachel Hart: Hey, everybody. Welcome back. So I have Adriana Cloud here with us again today. She coaches with me inside the Take a Break membership, and we are going to be talking today about non-alcoholic drinks because this is actually an area where a lot of people have questions or get confused, and we were often helping people kind of navigate and dispel a lot of myths about non-alcoholic beverages and whether or not they’re okay. And so that’s what we’re going to be sharing with you all today. Adriana, what do you often hear people asking inside the membership about non-alcoholic drinks? So I mean, again, NA, alcohol free, whatever you want to call it.

Adriana Cloud: Right. So the usual question that comes up is, is it okay to replace alcohol with non-alcoholic drinks? And is it dangerous to keep relying on non-alcoholic drinks where before we were relying on alcohol to do something? That’s generally the kind of question we get, yeah.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. I think one of the reasons I think this comes up is because there is a very strong story about any amount of alcohol for some people is a problem. So this idea of one sip will set you back. And so sometimes what I hear if people are cautioning around alcoholic drinks, it’s like, well, some of them do have small amounts of alcohol in them and so you’re playing with fire. That’s kind of the general criticism that I see. The other one is just kind of, well, you are fooling yourself, right? Because it’s like it starts with non-alcoholic beer and then one of those days that you’re just going to make the switch and be like, “Yeah, well, why don’t I just have a regular beer?” And so there is a lot of, I think for people, there’s a lot of fear around this idea of like, maybe I’m somehow playing with fire here, maybe I’m tricking myself.

And I will say, when it comes to people saying, are they okay? If I’m the reward archetype and I usually came home and opened up a bottle of beer or opened up a bottle of wine, is it okay for me to use a non-alcoholic replacement? And what we will say is that it’s really not a simple yes or no question. So that’s the first place that I just want to start from. It’s not as simple as just saying, “Yeah, don’t worry about it. No problem.” And also, I don’t think it makes sense to be like, “No, you’re just playing with fire. Don’t ever don’t fool yourself into thinking that non-alcoholic drinks are okay.”

Again, what we are helping people do is try to understand their desire and what’s actually happening with their desire and a deeper desire that might be going on. And so I think we always approach it from a very open-minded place, but also from instead of just saying, “Yeah, no problem,” let’s understand how that desire is coming up for you. And what I see is that it most often comes up with the Upgrade archetype, which is all about using a drink to elevate situations, or the Reward archetype, which is, you know, I worked really hard, I deserve a treat at the end of the day or the sign, sometimes the Reward archetype will show up as using a drink as a sign that you’re off the clock. I don’t know, do you see it come up in additional archetypes?

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, I was trying to think about that. I think those are the two really because it doesn’t have alcohol, it doesn’t provide that slowing down of the nervous system that maybe the Escape archetype would be looking for. So I think it is generally this kind of a special treat that I deserve because I’ve done my work, or something to make this experience feel different, special, somehow elevated. So I think, yeah, the Reward and the Upgrade probably are where we see it most often.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. One of the things that I will say, when I started doing this work a decade ago, and I was doing on my own personal journey which started a longer ago than that, maybe 15 years ago, there was so little out in the market. It was like O’Doul’s and sparkling apple cider. Right? There was just there was very, very little out in the market when it came to alternatives, and there was very little like I remember going to restaurants and saying like, “Well, you know, do you have any non-alcoholic options?” And so often getting, “Well, I can make you a Shirley Temple.” That was the entire repertoire. It was O’Doul’s, have a Shirley Temple, or maybe you can have some Martinelli’s sparkling apple cider.

There was very little, and it really has exploded so much. And I’m very grateful for that because I think giving people more alternatives, especially in settings where, you know, when you’re out at restaurants or you’re out at bars, one of the things that I didn’t realize for the longest time is how many people were drinking not because they love to drink, but because they really saw it as this is just what you do. Right? Like if everyone at the table is ordering a glass of wine, I’m having a glass of wine. If we’re all out at the bar, well this is what you do at the bar. 

And so I think partly that’s why it’s really exploded is because now that people have other options, you know, a lot of people love it. A lot of people like having the opportunity to have something that feels different, it feels festive, it feels a little bit more like it blends in with what other people are doing and it doesn’t have to just be, you know, “Well, if I’m not going to drink, I’m going to have a seltzer and lime,” or I’m going to have a really crappy O’Doul’s. And so I think that is really an amazing thing, and I think helps to make – it helps for a lot of people just make it easier to say, “You know what? I’m going to choose something different right now.”

So that’s one piece to consider. The other thing that I will say about this is I have really found in my personal world, I just love non-alcoholic beer. I do. I really liked the taste of beer when I was drinking and I had a lot of very like, ugh, mediocre, not even mediocre, just kind of like terrible non-alcoholic beers. When the marketplace changed and people started really figuring this out, I was like, “Oh, like this is…

Adriana Cloud: There’s some really good ones now, yeah.

Rachel Hart: There are some really good ones now. I don’t think the same is true. I haven’t seen like the same success with non-alcoholic wines. I definitely think there are also a lot of great non-alcoholic spirits out there. But I’m always very curious for myself to see what is going on when I am having a craving for a non-alcoholic beer. And is it because I’m watching the game? And this is just, you know, a long practiced habit that I have that, you know, when I’m watching certain sports, my brain’s like, “Hey, we have a beer.” 

Is it kind of am I in a social situation? Is it because I’m like, I mean, I have certainly noticed myself and it’s so fascinating to feel stressed at the end of the day, just be like, “Ugh, I need a beer.” And then I’m like, what is going on? What is this beer going to offer me? And then but to think about it in all of those situations and to get really curious about it. So what is one of the things that or what is one of the questions that you would have someone who was debating this or even just trying to figure out, is it right for me? Should I should I get a replacement? Should I find like a replacement drink? What’s one of the questions that you would have them ask themselves?

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, this is so good to explore. I think it comes back to what am I looking for this drink to do for me? Because that’s when we realize it doesn’t actually matter in some cases, it doesn’t matter what the alcohol content is of that drink, but am I looking for something external to make me feel a certain way? So I think that’s a helpful question to ask. And to your point earlier about now that there’s so many options out there, some people have realized that actually they weren’t looking to get drunk when they were going out. They were just drinking because everyone else was drinking, but really they get about the same enjoyment from having a non-alcoholic drink or a mocktail, and it’s still gives them that little bit of, “Oh, it’s kind of fun. I’m fitting in. I’m blending in because I’m having a beer and everyone else is having a beer and it doesn’t matter that mine is not alcoholic.”

And so there we can start to see that it’s not so much the drink, but what the drink represents. And that’s helpful to notice. But then there is that moment on the other side where if you notice, like you just described, “Oh, I’m having some kind of a day and I need a beer because I’m too stressed, this is it. I need something to take the edge off.” And there is that still conditioning of, oh, something else, something outside of me will help me to take the edge off. And I think that’s interesting to then start to notice, what are we outsourcing to the drink? What is it that we cannot provide for ourselves? Is it something that we are finding it difficult to sit with? And so that’s where I would bring a lot of curiosity is, why am I reaching for this drink? And again, coming back to that exercise in the guide of, what do I really need in this moment? Which is one of the best exercises ever for any archetype.

Rachel Hart: Yeah, I think, I mean, it’s so fascinating for me just to watch my own brain in that in that moment because I’m like, what do I really think that a non-alcoholic athletic beer is going to do for me when I’m stressed out? Not really anything. But again, because I had so many years of this is what we do at the end of a bad day. This is what we do when we were feeling stressed. And so, again, I’m willing to engage with myself in that moment and have that conversation and also be like, I’m not sure that what I’m actually seeking in this moment has anything to do with this drink, especially because, okay, beer, you know, non-alcoholic beer has trace amounts of alcohol in it. But I’m just like, that’s not what I’m after. What I’m after is what my brain learned the drink represent, which is there’s something for me. I’m stressed and I need something for me. 

And so it’s like a tool for me, if you’re willing to have these conversations, to slow down and just understand like, “Oh, I’m actually calling out for something right now. It’s just that my brain spent so many years thinking that what I was calling out for came in the form of a drink.” Right? What do I actually need right now? Maybe I need to, you know, tell my husband, you know what, I just need like, can I just have like 10 minutes to disappear upstairs and just reset myself and then come back downstairs and deal with the boys? Or maybe I need to take the dog on a walk, right? Maybe that’s sometimes where I’m like, I’ll volunteer to take the dog on a walk right now. Sure, I’ll do it. Like there’s something, there’s something else going on, but the willingness to have the conversation is the really important thing.

Now, I will add, earlier on in my journey, I definitely found myself very annoyed either at the lack of non-alcoholic options when I would go to restaurants, go out for a fancy meal, or the quality. This was a big thing for me that it probably like 5, 6 years ago, it was becoming much more commonplace for restaurants and bars to have a variety of non-alcoholic cocktails. And back then, in my experience, they were all versions of sweet, sweeter, and sweetest. Like that like it was like, okay, you made like a fun purple drink in a fun glass and all I taste is sugar. And I definitely, I had not done enough work myself on how the Upgrade archetype showed up for me that I definitely would feel very kind of annoyed and this sense of, well, no one’s even taking this seriously and I’m not being catered to. But the annoyance I think was masking what was going on underneath, which is I hadn’t really done the work myself to unpack how much I wanted to feel like I got something special too. There was something equally elevated and special and fancy for me.

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, it definitely felt like everyone who was not drinking alcohol, they were just, “Well, no one cares about you. No one no one has given any thought to what your experience is going to be like.” Yeah, I remember when I first attempted Dry January, I think probably 8 or 9 years ago, something like that. And there was Heineken Zero and that was it. And it was terrible. I’m sorry, it was terrible. I did not enjoy it at all. And I was just feeling so cranky and it’s like, “Well, everyone else is having a delicious drink and I can’t.” And I felt like, well, no one is thinking about me and I was offended.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. Okay. So this is really fascinating. There’s a couple things here because I really relate to this. One is this idea of “I can’t.” Everyone else is having the fancy drink and I can’t. Now, if you guys listen to this podcast, you will hear me talk about why word choice matters so much and how often we slip into patterns of telling ourselves that we can’t drink or we’re not allowed to drink and then how that then shows up for you know, later on for us because when you tell yourself that you can’t have something or you’re not allowed to have something and you understand the think feel act cycle, right? The things that we are saying to ourselves then generate how we feel. It does not feel very good.

Adriana Cloud: Nope.

Rachel Hart: It doesn’t to tell yourself that you can’t have something you’re not allowed to when in fact, it’s not even true. We’ve talked about this before that you have free will.

Adriana Cloud: Yeah. I was definitely choosing it. 

Rachel Hart: Yeah. So you’re most definitely choosing it. And so acting, I mean, I think that’s one of the things is acting as if it’s happening to you rather than, no, this is actually a choice. It might be a choice that I feel frustrated with. It might be a choice that I have a lot of internal conflict about. It might be a choice that you’re sitting there being like, “Yeah, there are pros, but there are also cons.” But it’s still a choice. So that’s one of the beautiful things that can happen when you are noticing your thoughts not just around alcoholic beverages, but around non-alcoholic beverages is that it’s really revealing to you the thoughts and the feelings that may be keeping you stuck. So that’s one is I can’t, right? I can’t have something. The other thing I think you said was, “I’m not being thought of or I’m not being considered.” What was it?

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, no one cared about my experience.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. No one cares about my experience. So tell more about that because I think a lot of people can relate to this. I know that I can.

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, I think it felt because I still at the time, I was still trying to go to the same places I used to go to when I was drinking. And so we would go to the pub with friends, and they would have Heineken Zero if I was lucky. And so it felt like they just did not care. They were like, “Well, what are you doing in a pub if you don’t want to drink regular alcohol, like actual alcohol, then why are you even here?” 

So I felt unwelcome in those places. Like they just really would rather I wasn’t there because then they would have someone there who actually was spending money on alcohol. So it just did not feel like anyone was giving any thought to people who are not drinkers what kind of an experience they would have. And that has definitely changed. But back then, and of course it was all in my head. I was having those thoughts that no one cares about me. I know that those are thoughts now, but back then it just really felt like I was not welcome in those places and somehow I didn’t fit in those places unless I was drinking and it didn’t feel good at all.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. Well, I will just share from my own experience, drinking for me, it was about a lot of things, but a big piece of it for me was feeling like I fit in and I belonged. And I was trying to outsource that feeling of connectedness. I’m you know, that these thoughts of like, I’m supposed to be here. I’m wanted here. I’m just like everybody else. I didn’t realize how long, how many years I spent trying to outsource having those thoughts to a drink in my hand, which is fascinating because I remember many times having a drink in my hand and still feeling some version of “I don’t belong here, I don’t fit in.” Right? Which took me a while to actually recognize that was going on. I remember very early on in my journey, I was like, “No, no, no, no. I totally fit in if I’m drinking and I definitely don’t fit in if I’m not drinking.” 

And it took me a while to really recognize, there were plenty of times that you would be drinking and still be telling yourself that you didn’t fit in. In fact, Rachel, that’s why you were going back for more. Right? That’s why you were drinking that drink really quickly and then having another and having another because you know what? Having a drink in your hand did not magically make it so that I suddenly felt like I belonged. Now listen, this isn’t going to be everyone’s experience. We have different archetypes that are going to be activated. 

But this was really it was a big part of my drinking, but it was also a big thought error that I had for a long time that I truly convinced myself, “No, no, no, if I’m drinking, then I feel totally fine,” right? “Then I feel like I belong.” And I really had to I really had to slow down and recognize like, yeah, that is not the case. Right? Because it’s like you can do the thought experiment of like, okay, so let’s just give you the glass of wine or the cocktail or the beer and you just hold it. Right? You’re just holding it.

Adriana Cloud: Yeah.

Rachel Hart: And it’s like, well, holding it doesn’t work. And it’s like, okay, so what about then you start drinking from it, right? But you don’t – you’re not going past this one drink. And it’s like, oh, wait, that doesn’t work either. Like there was a level of alcohol that I needed in my system to fully quiet those thoughts, but it was for a long time as if I didn’t see that piece of it, right? My brain was just like, nope, alcohol is belonging, right? Drinking is belonging and not drinking is, you know, the opposite. It is not belonging. And it was just so black or white for me.

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, that’s so interesting because I’m reminded of that research they did on people who the reward center gets activated even before they’ve taken a sip. So even just pouring the glass of wine already makes people feel more relaxed. So we come back to, “What if you’re just holding it? And what if the glass is just there next to you and you already feel like, okay, I can relax now,” and your brain starts to release the serotonin, and everything slows down and becomes more mellow before you’ve even taken a sip. So there’s definitely so much conditioning that happens, and the reward center gets activated even before we have taken a sip. 

So that’s an interesting one to sit with to start noticing at what point do you start feeling better or to feel more relaxed or to feel like you fit in? Is it when the drink is in your hand? When you’ve taken a sip? When you’ve had two glasses? What is that line? And to notice how much of it is not about the quantity really, but about what’s happening in your mind and where your thoughts are going.

Rachel Hart: Yeah. I mean, I think this is, you know, when we really start digging into this, and this is this is why you can do the work around alcoholic drinks, you can do the work around non-alcoholic drinks, but when you really start getting curious about what is going on, a lot of people will say, “Why I just want my cravings to go away. I hate cravings. I don’t like the craving. I don’t like the urge.” And to explore that with people and be like, “Okay, well, what about when you are, it’s whatever, 3:00 at work. You still got 2 more hours to go. You’re craving the drink, but you also believe I’m going to have it. I’m going to have that drink when I get home.” Do you dislike the experience in that moment of craving and not yet having it? Because it’s like, “Well, I don’t, you know, I don’t open up the bottle of wine at work, right? I like wait till I get home.” 

Most people will say, “No, then it’s fine.” Right? Then the craving that I’m having there, it’s something that I’m looking forward to. So it’s not a problem that I’m craving something that I’m not immediately having. And so like that’s another really just kind of fascinating take and understanding to have about your cravings. Like is the craving itself a problem or is it then what’s happening next? And what’s happening next is then how you’re relating to it. So you might be relating to it of like, “Oh yeah, this is what we’re going to do when we get home.” Right? “Or I’m going to stop by, you know, I’m going to stop by the grocery store and I’m going to pick something up.” Or is it like, “Ugh, why are you here? I don’t want you here. We’re not we’re not supposed to be drinking,” right? And like all the resistance to it to see like the craving itself, we people can have cravings and it be frankly an enjoyable thing, a thing that it’s like, “Ooh, I can’t wait. I’m looking forward to this. This is exciting.”

Adriana Cloud: Yeah, the pleasant anticipation versus the frustration.

Rachel Hart: The pleasant anticipation. Yes. Yeah. I know we’re talking about non-alcoholic drinks today, but I think that’s really what we’re asking you to consider is what is going on? What is going on when maybe you’re out at a fancy dinner and you look at the drink menu and you see there’s nothing here for me. They don’t have any non-alcoholic options. What’s going on for you then? Right? Because what’s going on for you then you’re going to really probably see the Upgrade archetype. You might see the Connector archetype as well. But it’s really going to be revealing in that moment what that drink represents. Same thing maybe when you are ending your day and you feel that real desire for something. It’s very easy to say like, “Okay, well, previously I was desiring the glass of wine, but now, okay, so just tell me the non-alcoholic drink that I can have to fill the or to be the replacement. To instead of really understanding, well, what’s going on here?” 

Yes, you’ve conditioned your brain to expect a reward. Like that is part of it for sure. But what does that reward represent? What is that thing that you’re really craving? And I think what happens a lot of times is people miss having this deeper and more profound conversation with themselves because they’re either annoyed that they’re not being catered to, or they’re just looking for, “Well tell me what like what’s the replacement?” And with the reward archetype in particular, this is why so often food gets substituted. It’s really just like, “I’m supposed to have some sort of treat as my pat on the back that I worked really hard and the day is done and I can.” You know, even if you can’t put your feet up, it’s like, “Ugh, I still got to do all my evening tasks, but at least I have something. At least I have some sort of reward helping me through those tasks.

Adriana Cloud: I think it’s definitely worth exploring what happens if you go about your day the same way, going out to dinner, whatever the experience is without the alcohol and see what happens because actually some people do find that it was the ritual. It was the ritual of pouring themselves a drink, any kind of drink, and being able to sit on the couch after dinner, or before they have to start making dinner in that transition period when they’re done with work but the evening tasks have not begun. And it’s only when you try to do it without alcohol that you start to realize what you were looking for the alcohol to do. What really is going on? What are you after in that in that moment? And why do you need to have that treat? 

Or if it was the upgrade, okay, well, what is not enough about that experience? Again, separating what’s in your glass and looking at what else is around you and how are you, how are you present for all of that instead of focusing on what’s in your glass? It’s just so fascinating what people discover when they remove alcohol and they start to see what happens if they replace it or what happens if they don’t replace it. And it’s funny we never say, “Oh, I replaced it with water.” But some people don’t need a replacement. 

I actually rarely order non-alcoholic drinks anymore. I’m just not interested. Sometimes I might order a non-alcoholic beer, but generally I’m just like, I don’t care. And I don’t miss it. And I know some people who love having all the options and trying every single kind of non-alcoholic beer, and they’re really are enjoying tasting them and comparing them and finding different notes and it’s so individual, and I love hearing people’s experiences with that because it varies so much.

Rachel Hart: I will tell you, I’m the one that so often orders it. And partly because I’m always just kind of like, “What can you do? Like let’s see what…” You know, to me it’s such a radical transformation that has happened in this market. And I’m very curious about it. There is a store in San Francisco. This kind of blew my mind the day that I walked by it, that literally only sells non-alcoholic wine and spirits and beer. And I remember just I walked by that store and I was like, it just blew my mind. I was like, what? 

And I feel really, I’m happy that is the case because like it or not, alcohol has been with humans for thousands of years. We have developed a lot of ritual around it. And broadening the market to include more options, more alcohol-free options, more non-alcoholic options, I just think that’s a good thing. I think that is a thing that for a lot of people, it just makes it easier for them. And it’s also can be very interesting, right? It can be very interesting, you know, especially if you go out to kind of fancy meals where there’s a lot of play and intention happening around food. I think equally interesting things can happen in your glass. It’s just for a long time we believed that only came in the form of alcohol.

Adriana Cloud: I love that shops like that exist. We have a couple here in London and I love going there and like I do buy things sometimes. And I’m just always fascinated by the new developments coming up and to have non-alcoholic rum, that’s so fun to be able to make rum cake with non-alcoholic rum. That’s really cool. And yes, by all means, give people more options because when we have more options, we realize that it wasn’t ever just about the alcohol for some people. It really was not. It was just everything that comes around it. All the meaning again, all the meaning we attached with our thoughts to that liquid.

Rachel Hart: It wasn’t about the alcohol. It wasn’t about the alcohol. It was about the archetypes.

Adriana Cloud: Yep.

Rachel Hart: All right. All right, everybody. I hope that we have given you some things to think about here. Again, we don’t have a specific rule that we have people follow. We really just want you to get curious about what is coming up for you. And, you know, like I said, I still watch my brain in different moments crave non-alcoholic beer even though what is it really craving? It’s craving what it represents. And I’m still think it’s important to have those conversations with myself and to make decisions to not just go on autopilot there and to see what’s really going on, what am I really needing, what am I really wanting or desiring in this moment. So it really is that willingness to just have that bigger conversation with yourself. All right, everybody, thanks so much for joining. We’ll see you all next week

Hey guys, you already know that drinking less has plenty of health benefits. But did you know that the work you do to change your relationship with alcohol will help you become more of the person you want to be in every part of your life? 

Learning how to manage your brain and your cravings is an investment in your physical, emotional and personal wellbeing. And that’s exactly what’s waiting for you when you join my membership Take a Break. 

Whether you want to drink less, drink rarely, or not at all, we’ll help you figure out a relationship with alcohol that works for you. We’ll show you why rules, drink plans, and Dry January so often fail, and give you the tools you need to feel in control and trust yourself. 

So, head on over to RachelHart.com and sign up today, because changing the habit is so much easier when you stop trying to go it alone.